My name is Mark Benham, I’m head of Real Estate at Lester Aldridge. I advise housebuilders on land promotion, acquisition and development. Outside of work, my passion is music.

There is a clear synergy between community assets, including live music venues, and the creation of new housing. In 2023, the Government’s chief planner Joanna Averley reminded planning authorities that they “have an important role in identifying and protecting local grassroots music venues in their area from the effects of new development”, referring them to the requirements in the NPPF regarding the provision of suitable mitigation measures. She also flagged how the Music Venue Trust can offer support to planning authorities when consulting on applications.

Independent music venues are the lifeblood of the music industry here in the UK, breathing life into our towns and cities as part of the “night-time economy”. Sadly, 2023 was the UK’s worst year for music venue closures, according to the Music Venue Trust, with 125 grassroots music venues closing over 12 months. Without Government support, the sad reality is that the number of venues will continue to shrink.

Our next guest is the Head of Planning & Environmental Services at Wealden District Council, Stacey Robins.

Born and raised in London, Stacey is a rare beast – a local authority town planner with a public profile.  Not only does he have a keen interest in engaging publicly with people interested in planning and development, he regularly “pulls back the curtain” and provides the public with a valuable insight into life at a busy planning authority, revealing the challenges and issues his team faces on a weekly basis.  He is also not shy to talk about failures or mistakes made; a refreshing approach on LinkedIn.

After studying planning in Sheffield, Stacey started his career with a brief stint at Wealden District Council before moving to Cheltenham Borough Council and working in development control until 2006, when he returned to his spiritual home at Wealden.

Interested in finding out which inspector appeared on committee t-shirts (nearly), why Housing First should be our mantra and which era Duran Duran floats Stacey’s boat? Strap yourselves in, let’s hear from Stacey…

Mark: What is the most entertaining and memorable planning committee you have taken part in?

Stacey: I’ve really scratched my head for this one. I could honestly give so many answers! 

The one that really springs to mind was during the COVID lockdown but after LPAs had been told to stand up online committee meetings. I recall we were running weekly meetings in order to clear a backlog of cases.

Anyway, my wife was never locked down and had to go into work. It meant I was at home, trying to run a service, trying to run weekly committees and home school x3 boys. I am not entirely sure there was very much homeschooling going on, but all my lads perfected front and back flips on the trampoline (if you get my drift!).

We had a committee meeting on Teams and I was being asked a series of layered questions about an application. Meanwhile, World War Three was going on in my hallway, literally just outside the door to the room I was presenting in. I had to pretend to be thinking (very hard!) and carefully timing when I turned on my mic and off, basically in between the bloodcurdling screams.

No one was injured (it was just boys being boys) and our chairman (now long gone from the Council) later said that she had no idea what was going on.

Mark: What was the first, and most recent, music gig/concert that you attended?

Stacey: My first gig… gosh, I must have been about 15. We lived in London at the time, close to Clapham Common, and me and a couple of pals went to see Rat Pak* at Vauxhall Arches. We weren’t sure we would get in (but did), and I remember it being really very loud, water costing £7.50 a bottle, and it raining on the way home (we walked back as we had run out of money!).

Most recent gig: I saw Carl Cox plus guests at On The Beach Festival in Brighton in July 2024 (photo above). Great day out. I have a ticket for the Stereo MCs coming up in a couple of weeks.

*Not “The Rat Pak” (as in crooners) but Rat Pak – DJ Lipmaster Mark & MC Evenson Allen, godfathers of the warehouse/rave scene…

Mark: What one technological advance do you think would help accelerate the delivery of housing in the UK?

Stacey: It’s got to be AI and Building Information Modelling (BIM) – a digital process that involves creating and managing an intelligent 3D model of a building or infrastructure project. This model contains detailed information about a scheme’s physical and functional characteristics, allowing for better planning, design, construction, and management throughout the building’s lifecycle.

3D Modelling: BIM creates a comprehensive 3D model that includes geometry, spatial relationships, and geographic information. This model helps visualise a project in detail before construction begins.

Information-Rich Models: The “I” in BIM stands for information. Each element in the model contains data about its properties, such as materials, dimensions, and performance specifications. This information is crucial for decision-making and project management.

Collaboration: BIM facilitates real-time collaboration among all stakeholders, including architects, engineers, contractors, and clients. Everyone works on the same model, ensuring that changes made by one party are immediately visible to others.

However, it’s the Clash Detection that surely has untapped possibilities: BIM software can automatically detect clashes between different building systems (e.g., structural, mechanical, electrical), allowing issues to be resolved during the design phase before work begins on site.

Mark: What band or artist is your dream headline act, who would be the support act and where would the gig be?

Stacey: Wowsers. How do you answer this?

My music taste is so varied, I literally listen to all sorts of people, groups and types.  I’m fortunate to have seen so many great bands and all on my doorstep.  From Primal Scream, Cat Power, to The Flaming Lips, Father John Misty, Michael Kiwanuka and Little Dragon. I once even dragged my wife to see Tinie Tempah with DJ Fresh and Messy MC with Krept & Konan: it was brilliant (not sure she was convinced, though!).

However, I have to be truthful. If I could go see anyone anywhere, it would be Duran Duran in May 1987 at the Brighton Centre, The Strange Behaviour Tour. Check out the setlist:

A View to a Kill
Notorious
American Science
Union of the Snake
Vertigo (Do the Demolition)
New Religion
Meet El Presidente
Election Day
Some Like It Hot
(The Power Station cover)
A Matter of Feeling
The Chauffeur
Save a Prayer
Skin Trade
Hold Me
Is There Something I Should Know?
Hungry Like the Wolf
The Wild Boys
Play Video
The Reflex

If that set doesn’t get you dancing, then I’m not sure what would!

Mark: What housing scheme or project that you have been involved in are you the proudest of?

Stacey: I was asked this question on Have We Got Planning News for You, and I couldn’t really point to a single scheme. At that point, I answered that it was about the journey, of involving people and ensuring their interaction with the planning system was as good as can be, that’s what I look for and try hard to secure in schemes (this despite the many allegations of failing to do so).

However, if I was being pushed to answer, I would probably refer to the refusal and then planning appeal for 400 units on a site known locally as Downlands Farm. Complex issues but it included development abutting a SANG within ancient woodland. We were convinced it was wrong, even though Natural England didn’t object.

We ran a month-long inquiry, with me out marshalling the event and giving the planning evidence, whilst still running a very busy service. It was pretty insane, really, but we were determined to stand and fight, not turn and run. It was bonkers, almost a David and Goliath type matter when you looked at the resources the other side chucked at it. When we won, it was brilliant, and the site has gone away (for now anyway).

I have told most of this story before, but not this next bit: one of the LPA witnesses (who shall remain nameless) had “we love Anne Jordan“ t-shirts printed up and were going to wear them to the next committee. We didn’t, as I chickened out, but those t-shirts are quality and epitomise a huge team effort from the LPA.

Anne Jordan was the inspector and may see this, I guess: I should say (if I am able to) that Anne ran that inquiry flawlessly and with real skill and guile. We have the webcast on our YouTube channel: if there is anyone reading this curious about the appeal process and role of an inspector, it’s worth a look. And no, I am not saying that because we won; she was very fair to everyone.

Mark: If you could sum up the state of housebuilding in the UK by reference to a song, what song would it be?

Stacey: Well, it would be too easy to say “Under Pressure“ by Queen and David Bowie. The housing market is facing significant challenges, including ever-increasing property prices, affordability issues, and the need for sustainable building practices. However, there’s also a sense of urgency and determination to innovate and overcome these obstacles, much like the relentless beat and powerful lyrics of the song.

However, I’ll be more modern and suggest Kendrick Lamar’s song “Sing About Me, I’m Dying of Thirst“ from his album “good kid, m.A.A.d city“. This delivers powerful messages through its two-part structure. Some of these themes might not fully apply to the whole UK housebuilding industry, but the social commentary is spot on; Kendrick uses the song to comment on broader social issues, including the impact of systemic inequality and the need for change. He emphasises the importance of sharing these stories to bring awareness and inspire action.

Mark: What one change would you like to see made to the planning application process?

Stacey: Ah, this is easy, and I have posted about it over and over again. We have got to try and ensure that applicants and developers properly engage. That they speak and reach out to the right people; not the easy ones who will always turn up to a dusty village hall and most likely object, but the ones who will likely benefit from development.  Usually, those young and keen to stay in an area but trapped out of doing so.

I’ve been doing this for a few years now (too many to say, really), and I honestly cannot recall the last time I saw an application with genuine and well-done community involvement.

Mark: What is your favourite album?  Name the first that comes into your mind.

Stacey: Urggh. I honestly don’t really listen to albums. Not in full. It’s part of the current problem with streaming accounts or apps. I dip in and out of albums or have playlists that might have a few songs from an album.

I suppose I can do no worse than list the top spot in Spotify unwrapped albums from 2024: this was “To the 5 Boroughs”, the sixth album by the Beastie Boys. The album was released in 2004 and if you don’t know it, go take a look. It’s utterly impossible not to dance (even just a tiny foot tap!) to the album’s first single “Ch-Check It Out”.

Mark: Tell me something about your job that people are unlikely to know.

Stacey: I’m not sure this is possible! I post a fair bit online about my job, so can’t think there are very many secrets.

Hmnnn…. (comes back to question last) I’m struggling here…

Not really about my job, but I think I am a bit of a nightmare to work with! I do things at 100 mph and get frustrated when others work at 35 mph. I do try to hide it and pipe down. It’s a terrible trait and can cause issues (obviously). I’m always being told to slow down. It will say that on my epitaph, I think…

I’ve got a weird thing whereby I wear very bright socks to Committee. Basically, shockers that will sting your retina. Not sure why. I’ve always done this. Now I write this down, it’s a bit weird, really (but was meant to be funny; I don’t have plain socks. Life’s too short for plain socks).

Mark: What is your favourite venue for live music?

Stacey: I am going to sort of cheat here – I don’t really travel far for music. OK, up to London, but I mostly stay local. I’m a firm believer in “use it or lose it“ so we go to venues close by. That and I think there is something key about going out, meeting new folks, having a few drinks and a dance, but getting home to your own bed! Go too far and that becomes much trickier.

We live in Brighton where there is loads going on and the music scene is quite lively. 

Of all the local venues, I am going to say Concorde 2 on Madeira Drive. Have seen so many acts there and had some really great nights. I recall we saw British Sea Power there a few years ago now, and there was a guy dressed in an 8-foot polar bear suit dancing in the crowd. Mad really.

Mark: What change would you like to see made to the appeal process that would really help planning inspectors?

Stacey: Can I ask for two?

Wheatcroft and changes mid-appeal: I’ve only once seen an Inspector roll back the clock on a load of changes and force an appellant to revert to the scheme that was the subject of the appeal. And rightly so! I get that a load of developers reading this will think “hang on, the LPA never engage and only commented at the appeal stage“ Providing that hasn’t happened, and the LPA has gone about things transparently and fairly, I think mid-appeal changes should be ruled out. Go back to the start and make a fresh application. Do it properly. Don’t piggyback the appeal system to evolve your scheme – after all, that is what PINS guidance says.

I also think inspectors in s78 appeals ought to be empowered to pull up a break at any point and declare – if the circumstances justify it – that from the information they have seen to that point, they are minded to dismiss. To decare that there is no need to go on and air other points. A bit like at an EiP where you get mid-session letters from the inspector that essentially say, “Close, but no cigar. Please can we all go home?“

How many of us have sat in multi-day events for an appeal decision to come out saying dismissed on the issues (debated on day 1), and the write-up effectively comments that a load of other issues were debated, but no real assessment and decision are required as the case is being binned on the first issue. I do understand that sometimes it is necessary to get an impartial view on some contested issues, but if an inspector declares that a scheme is already toast, surely they should have the discretion to close the event then? It would save loads of time.

Mark: What is the quirkiest or most unusual place you’ve seen live music?

Stacey: We go to The Great Escape in Brighton each year and have done so for a few years now. The event uses plenty of odd halls, churches and pretty random venues. Some years ago, we were rushing between acts (you have to in order to make the best use of tickets and time, etc.), and there was a crowd gathered outside or kind of tucked down the side of the Unitarian Church on Bond Street. Ry X was playing an impromptu pop-up gig of a few songs. 

Mark: What housing policy or project from another jurisdiction would you like to see implemented in the UK?

Stacey: A very close friend of ours is Finnish (no I am not going to go on about Koskenkorva Salmiakki from a kuksa, but the stuff is amazing!). I’ve spent many hours chatting about Finland’s “Housing First“ model. This approach focuses on providing stable housing to homeless individuals before addressing other issues they may be facing, such as mental health or substance abuse.

A key feature of the Housing First model is its immediate access to housing: individuals are given a permanent place to live without preconditions, such as sobriety or participation in treatment programs. Once housed, individuals receive tailored support services to help them maintain their housing and address other needs.

Finland has seen a significant decrease in homelessness since implementing this model. Providing stable housing first allows individuals to focus on improving other aspects of their lives, leading to better overall outcomes.

By reducing the reliance on emergency services and shelters, Housing First can save public funds in the long run.

If you think about it, the UK approach is flawed by comparison: we rely on temporary accommodation for homeless people, which can be unstable and stressful. The accommodation is often poor quality and costs huge amounts to provide. In doing so, that drains money away from other key frontline services. Support services are typically provided but may require individuals to meet certain conditions, such as engaging in treatment programs.

The UK government has increased funding for homelessness services and is working on building more social and affordable homes. However, it might be argued this approach is more fragmented and less focused on immediate, permanent housing.

Many thanks to Stacey for joining us. Our next episode will be landing next month – sign up to be notified when episodes are published here.

If you need further advice about any of your real estate requirements, please contact Mark via email at mark.benham@la-law.com.